I'd argue that it is nonsense to treat symptoms instead of the cause (of an issue) , but actually doing just that is quite intellectual when a bunch of money stands to be made
I suppose that's true, in much the same way that chemotherapy treats the symptom of cells spontaneously deciding to replicate in your body. That does not mean we judge people battling a cancer diagnosis and tell them to pursue non-medicated approaches because it's "just treating symptoms".
If you encounter a bit of bitterness from the ADHD community online, let me provide some perspective: I have been called lazy my entire life, I have wondered why everybody could just do stuff and apply themselves. Why couldn't I just clean my house, do my homework, keep on top of chores, or even find the energy to play games after a day of work? I only found out as an adult I have a disability which makes all of that an uphill battle for me, INCLUDING finding the motivation for the fun stuff. There is an easy fix for this, some meds that take care of SOME of the problem. They don't fix it in much the same way that a wheelchair doesn't fix the legs of a crippled person, but it sure is like playing life on easy mode if you're used to dragging yourself around by your arms. And now I'm stuck explaining this to people who have done the barest minimum of research and who say 'oh it only is treating symptoms'. They have the audacity of calling me lazy (again!) for not training my arms more to overcome my disability that way. And my response is simple: You can take my metaphorical wheelchair over my dead body, and if you were in my position you would feel exactly the same way.
i understand your perspective viscerally and as such i understand the push back ... the argument is that there is nothing wrong with someone labelled 'adhd' , rather that the modern western system both a) does not handle adhd behaviour properly and b) exhibits conditions where non-adhd individuals exhibit adhd behaviour ... when taking into account that speed will motivate anybody (both adhd and non adhd) , and that demotivation is a natural response to a hopeless scenario , i do not see adhd as a disability in and of itself ... recommend to look up the effect of hope on drowning rats ...
Even if you were 100% correct and the world is broken, fully causing ADHD as a disorder: Please fix the world FIRST and only once proven ADHD is caused by what once was the shape of western society and no longer applies, THEN you get to take the metaphorical wheelchair away.
The alternative is that you prevent millions of people in managing their disability while asking them to bet on your view of the world AND on our collective ability to change it. In the best case scenario where we manage that shift, that's what, 10 years of my life gone while society adjusts? Will you write my kids a nice letter explaining them their dad is going to be a deadbeat the next 10 years while we fix society, because somebody on the internet thinks daddy shouldn't be on stimulant medication?
You're just not presenting an attractive deal to anyone, whilst very politely telling disabled people making the best of their shit situation that their crutches should not exist. Hell, maybe they shouldn't need to exist, but how is that my fault? And while I can't tell if you stand on the side of 'using meds to manage ADHD is a failure of self discipline and morality', but if you do: I promise you most people with ADHD have more self discipline in their little toe than others do in their entire body. But self discipline doesn't make a cripple walk, as much as it doesn't make my brain make the chemicals I need to put my body into action. I've spent enough time of my life flogging myself into action, believing I was a fundamentally lazy human, I'll take the meds.
That is nonsense, it makes perfect sense to treat symptoms when it works and lessens those symptoms. Most of medicine works that way- our understanding of biology is primitive, and we often cannot identify or treat underlining causes.
>I'd argue that it is nonsense to treat symptoms instead of the cause (of an issue) , but actually doing just that is quite intellectual when a bunch of money stands to be made
What specifically are you talking about here? It appears to me that your comment is an expression of vibe with zero information content.
There's no dichotomy between treating symptoms and cause even when the cause is treatable (which isn't the case with ADHD; it's a neurotype, with differences showing on brain scan levels) — and that's setting aside the discussion of whether it's something we need to "treat" in the first place.
We still have painkillers for people who need them while they are getting treatment.
We still have meds for runny noses, we still have Tylenol for fever, even though these are merely symptoms.
We still have pills for allergies.
And on that note: the symptoms (such as fever and allergic reactions) can and do kill people.
>modern western society exhibits a plethora of conditions that are likely to result in the manifestation of adhd behaviours in non adhd individuals
Maybe.
>a brain scan is not part of the diagnostic criteria for labelling adhd
Correct.
>taking speed makes anyone more productive, not just those with adhd
We arent talking about productivity gains.
>for me to reconsider my comment you would have to provide a convincing argument that doping up the populace is objectively the best path forward
"Doping up" is intentionally emotive language and a misrepresentation.
>to me it seems that this is not the best path forward, rather one that serves to minimize societal friction
You dont even clearly state your complaint. Its about patient outcomes, not "society" but you are implying they are also a social good. Great.
The best path forward is to reduce the severity of peoples illnesses. These drugs, reduce the severity of peoples illnesses. People with these illnesses, have a better life due to the medication. Why that upsets you is a deeply internal problem to you, not a problem with society or medicine.
Well it would be a net social good. But I expect I will see a different account with vastly the same posting style back here next time ADHD comes up, spewing the same nonsense.
So, instead of reading what I wrote, you choose to remain willfully ignorant.
I am not responding further for your sake, but for the sake of those who read this thread.
> taking speed makes anyone more productive, not just those with adhd.
Speed (methamphetamine) has the same relationship to Adderall (dextroamphetamines) as methanol does to ethanol; a difference in methyl group.
Ethanol (aka alcohol) is commonly used for recreational purposes.
If you think Adderall is the same thing as "speed", I hope you wouldn't mind drinking a glass of methanol to prove the point that chemically similar substances have similar effects.
> modern western society exhibits a plethora of conditions that are likely to result in the manifestation of adhd behaviours in non adhd individuals
Which is why the diagnostic criteria for ADHD require a lifelong manifestation of ADHD symptoms.
Notice how you say behaviors, not symptoms or traits, i.e. how people act, and not how they feel, which difficulties they face, what cost they bear, and so on.
The behavior of an ADHD individual might be no different from one without ADHD. We can be on time, for example.
It is just immensely more difficult for us, just like it's difficult for someone with a broken leg that didn't quite heal to walk.
And yes, anyone can bump their toe on a table leg and experience pain for a while. That doesn't mean that people with broken legs don't exist.
>a brain scan is not part of the diagnostic criteria for labelling adhd.
It isn't, because we have cheaper and more reliable ways.
The difference is there though.
> you would have to provide a convincing argument that doping up the populace is objectively the best path forward - to me it seems that this is not the best path forward, rather one that serves to minimize societal friction.
Believing that "doping up the populace" is what's taking place is a delusion that I can't address in the same way that I can't address the belief that the Loch Ness monster caused the 2019 Coronavirus pandemic.
Unfortunately, your worldview seem to be as strongly detached from reality as you are convinced about the veracity of your unshakable beliefs.
But again, if you sincerely believe people taking Adderall are taking speed, you really could save a lot on booze by drinking methanol instead.
>youre very close to freeing yourself but the speed has an iron grip on your thoughts , i wish you all the best and hope that things may settle down
Oh my. I was going to ask if you've drank a glass of methanol to argue that Adderall and speed the same thing, as I suggested... but judging my the content of your comments, you might have had more than one already.
we could choose to produce an environment that handles normal human behaviour , but instead we label normal human behaviour as dissonant , its an idea so simple yet one so violently opposed , such violence only spurs me on to champion the idea
ADHD behavior is normal human behavior, because we're all human.
And indeed, some quite reasonable accommodations and changes in the way the society functions and forms expectations of ourselves and others would go a long way towards making ADHD folks living fulfilling lives without pain.
All that said, executive dysfunction is still a thing, and ADHD folks routinely find themselves struggling with their own goals and lives, apart from the society and its expectations.
Technology can and does help a lot (electric kettles that turn themselves off, washer-dryer combo machines that don't require remembering to take clothes out, etc).
But then there are still things that I struggle with on my own, like wanting to send postcards to friends and taking literal years to get to it.
I really can't blame it on the society.
That's where the meds can make a big difference in one's life.
In some ways, ADHD is an advantage. We fare better than others in emergencies. Hyperfocus is an asset. Having a million hobbies is a plus.
But in other ways, it's something that makes us need support.
The meds are one of the ways the society accommodates us and gives us that support.
if you took an adhd cunt and threw him in the bush he would be fine ... but if you threw him into a cookie cutter hyper capitalist no-hope no-wife no-friends no-third-space doomscroll-to-death sealed box , that man wouldn't be fine! the man in question never changed , only his environment did. ergo , societal amphetamines are about as supportive as me handing you a set of crutches after i broke your legs. but trying to blame adhd on society is basically a copout as it reflects the way that society treats individuals ("here, take this speed and wreck your heart so that you fit better into the box we designed for you"). the only way forward is to through honest questioning as to why adhd diagnoses are thousands of times greater in the west, eg. maybe if we didn't get forced into a 9-5 schedule and instead had a bit more freedom , people would be more happy to devote energy to their work ...
