I'd wager that the most manipulative people in social settings are people with the most neediness but least experience, self-esteem, and emotional stability. And those are things most people wrestle with to some degree.
Since I imagine most guys come to the PUA community because those traits relegate them to a life of loneliness and zero ass, I would think that their real goal is to transcend those traits altogether and to become better people. It's what PUA nirvana must be.
An interesting reply. But doesn't seem to address anything about the question I posed and more an attempt to throw a positive spin on PUA.
I mean, what you suggest here is that people are manipulative and sad before they become involved in the PUA community, and that the joining of said community is an attempt to free them of these negative traits?
I get confused by this logic because as far as I can tell the PUA community endorses manipulative and dishonest behavior, so what you're suggesting is that these lonely, manipulative, people, can transcend their manipulative behavior through more manipulative behavior.
I get confused by this logic because as far as I can tell the PUA community endorses manipulative and dishonest behavior, so
A subset of "the PUA community" do that, but there is nothing inherent about "learning PUA" that implies any dishonesty or manipulation. More than anything, it's about gaining confidence, learning some basic etiquette, grooming essentials, and a little bit of other stuff. It's Pareto's Law in action... 80% of your improvement at meeting women comes from 20% of the "stuff" that could potentially learn from PUAs. Better posture, better clothes, a fresh haircut, smiling more, and not being scared of, or intimidated by, beautiful women, is the heart of PUA-dom.
And to be quite frank, these days, the "PUA community" has really outgrown it's roots and become the "male self-help and improvement community". Lurk on many "PUA" forums and you'll find guys talking more about how to start businesses and make more money, than the ones swapping "routines" or whatever.
as I can tell the PUA community endorses manipulative and dishonest behavior
I haven't seen anything "manipulative and dishonest" on Tynan's blog, nor in his books. Well, at some level everything we do to influence another person is "manipulative," but that's such a broad definition as to be useless.
Picking up girls, and selling are very similar, and you can often cross use the techniques you learn.
Is selling dishonest? It is if you lie and shit.
Is it manipulative? What the hell does that really mean? When we interact with the world and people, we are by definition manipulating it.
If you show up to a party and act retarded, you are manipulating people into thinking you're a retard.
If you show up to a party and act cool, interesting, fun, you are manipulating people into thinking you're that.
Is the latter form of manipulation considered "bad" because you aren't cool, interesting, and fun all the time? No one is 100% of the time, we all have different emotional states, at different times.
Why is selling yourself wrong then? There's pretty much nothing wrong with that as long as you don't have STDs (and even that's ok if you mention it) or are a serial killer or something.
It could just mean communicating effectively. An untrained person would do terribly if they tried to plead a case in court, even if they knew all the relevant facts, because they don't know how to phrase their arguments in the way lawyers want them. But learning to "speak legalese" isn't learning dishonesty or manipulation - it's just about phrasing things the right way.
If you're a pickup artist doesn't this imply a certain degree of dishonesty and manipulation?
No, it doesn't. More than any single other thing, "being a PUA" is about learning not to be scared of / intimidated by, women. And about learning not to supplicate and do stupid shit, in order to try to manipulate women into having sex with you. The thing is, most so called "nice guys" are far more manipulative than a PUA! They just aren't as honest with themselves, OR the person they're trying to connect with.
